ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by barryf on Tue May 05, 2015 7:48 pm

Members present appreciated Geoff Small giving up his time to give his thoughts on the horse (Some Change) . He explained that the horse has good length and expects him to grow a few more  points during his developing phase- already probably a little taller than Major Change.

My interpretation of the voting procedures is that the majority of the existing  syndicate members plus the Carr/Kirkbride partnership would need to be in accord, otherwise a greater than 50% majority would not prevail.  This would seem a fair outcome, with Carr/Kirkbride having a vote as a syndicate member but not having anything more within the members' syndicate.
While the existing rules of the syndicate do not specifically refer to a joint ownership situation I perceive goodwill between both parties and members are involved with people of high repute in Messrs Carr and Kirkbride, who had no obligation to make this offer to members.

So, I am looking forward to more good times in regard to the 2016 syndicate.

My notes showed a 38 to 5 vote, indicating a 16/ 4 of those present. Awaiting formal notice to confirm or otherwise.


Last edited by barryf on Wed May 06, 2015 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Voting at meeting.)

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by ray the beancounter on Mon May 04, 2015 10:02 pm

The meeting was held this evening in regard to the proposed purchase of a 50% share in the yearling that Rob bred – called “Some Change”.

There was a good turnout with some members standing at the rear of the room.
Discussion was had regarding the value at which the horse was passed-in at the yearling sales 10 weeks ago, and details of a current registered valuation were provided. Questions were raised in regard to the syndicate paying travel expenses for the manager in regard to this horse, and also in regard to the casting of a vote by the manager in the event of a tied syndicate vote.

The syndicate rules simply do not contemplate a joint ownership so do not cover this eventuality - this is unknown territory for an ATC syndicate. There are no rules, procedures nor precedents to protect syndicate members so we can only trust that things will run smoothly and that common sense prevails.

The vote was predictable with 34 voting in favour of the purchase and 5 voting against. Analysed as: Proxies (22 for : 1 against), voting in person (12 for : 4 against).
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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by dene neal on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:35 pm

Rob notified those present at the end of month dinner on Sunday night that Barry Purdon had confirmed that Jack and Belle had come through Friday's races well and will line up again on Friday May 8th. Major Change will probably start at Cambridge on Thursday 7th May. Also a group of us at the table did discuss Some Change and the general view was although there are one or two points that need clarification, refer to reason one for joining the syndicate,so lets go for it .All spoken to did not have a problem with the price being asked.

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by Des Carruthers on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:02 pm

Bettors Pocket to race from barrier seven, Major Star having a break. Does anybody have updates on the immediate future for The Faithful, Major Change and Ideal Belle. Have there been any developments regarding Some Change?

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by barryf on Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:18 pm

Yes. The rules require a majority ( 51%) of those holding a voting share to enforce a resolution, so that may need clarification for other than the forthcoming resolution.

Incidentally, there doesn't appear to be any limitation on the number of shares any member may hold. I understand that some in the past have held more than one individual share.

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by Des Carruthers on Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:18 pm

When discussing the value of the horse, I consider that at the time of the sales the syndicates trust the trainers to make bids according to what they value the yearling at and in this case Geoff Small says that Some Change is not overpriced. Rob Carr also enlisted the expert help of a bloodstock agent who rejected many and put Some Change forward as a candidate. As far as the decision making goes the owners will get 51% of the prize money but only 50% of the vote, as owners, plus their opinion mixed in as part of the 50% Syndicate vote. If the horse turned out to be very good, an offer of $1 million may be hard to turn down for the owners but the syndicate may want to keep the horse to race themselves. Whilst this is hypothetical, the decision making process needs to be clarified before the meeting.
I have one share in ATC2012 (1/50th) and one share in ATC2013 (1/50th) and share a share with my son in ATC 2014 (1/100th) which would be the same proportion as one share in Some Change. I get the same amount of interest and involvement watching the ATC2014 horses as I do with the other syndicates. For me the choice is easy - a share and career involvement in a well bred horse like Some Change ... or nothing.


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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by ray the beancounter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:46 pm

Just to clarify - the email received yesterday advised that the manager did in fact own a share in the syndicate and would abstain from voting due to this. Hence my inference of a 51% ownership.
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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by barryf on Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:36 pm

I quite like the proposal as I liked the horse at the parade and on sale day.

I am not aware that the present owners would have any more than a 50 % interest. I believe that in one recent syndicate the manager took up a share as they were very slow to sell. Prior to this I don't believe the manager had a share.

While the stakes would be watered down so are the costs and as the majority of racehorses lose money for their owners this should not be too much of a deterrent, The offer does provide the potential to race 3 horses in the immediate season instead of 2.
As to the price , the auction  market may set the value as at one moment in time, but only then.  I venture to suggest than many of the horses which fetch substantial prices at auction will be worth very little when they have been broken in and tested for ability. The reverse also applies. A perusal of recent catalogues is evidence of this.
In the case of Some Change we have seen the emergence of
Waikiki Beach,the outstanding 2 year old by the same sire, and his half brother, Major Change which has won 6 times since the 2015 catalogue was printed. So the $40000 price tag would seem reasonable to me at this time.
Disputes in the past have often involved an independent chairman to avoid any perceived conflict of interest and these have usually been resolved satisfactorily.


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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by ray the beancounter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:41 pm

Okay, I am going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons and provide a dissenting opinion.
With all due respect I will be exercising my democratic vote and will be voting “no” to this proposal. Yes, I certainly did go into the syndicate with the intent and purpose of owning and racing three horses, but the proposed purchase of this particular horse is, in my opinion, inappropriate.

My reasons are fourfold;
1. Conflict in interest – there in an undeniable conflict of interest when a party that holds a position of decision making is also a 51% owner (50% plus one-fiftieth of the remaining 50%). I do not believe that it is possible for a person to remain truly impartial in this circumstance regardless of how much you might intend to be;

2. Sharing of only 50% of any stakes winnings amongst 50 syndicate members - I believe that this is watering down the stakes too much;

3. Setting of the market value used to determine the sale price. A public auction is the only way to determine the true market value of a horse – the price that a person is prepared to pay on the open market on any particular day. I was at the February yearling sales and according to my yearling sales catalogue the horse concerned was passed in at $27,500, against a reserve value that is now being used as the proposed sale price. On that particular day the market value of the horse was closer to $27,500 (as that is the price that someone was prepared to pay for the horse) than it is to the vendors expectation (ie. their reserve). The market value of an item is the price that a person is prepared to pay under an arms-length transaction, not the value that a vendor would “like” to receive when setting their reserve.
I struggle with the idea that paying the requested price for a 50% share of a horse that only reached $27,500 at auction two months ago, is a reasonable price;

4. There is no procedure in place currently to resolve disputes when the syndicate only owns 50% of a horse. In fact do the syndicate rules even allow for partial ownership of a horse? This prospect was likely not even contemplated when the syndicate rules were drafted.

One syndicate member did offer a plausible alternative last evening and that was to invest the money for 10 months and to purchase another yearling at the February 2016 sales. Would a group of 50 members accept such an idea - likely not in my opinion - but you would have a wider selection of bloodstock to choose from and the market price is determined by public auction. Yes you end up with one horse that is a year older than the other two syndicate horses, but the 2012 syndicate is an example of this being successful as we have 5yr old Major Star and 4yr old Ideal Belle. It likely means that the syndicate will exist for a year longer than normal.

Let the discussion begin.............
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ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse CHANCE PACE.

Post by David Young on Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:04 pm

Looks like a positive idea to me.Good Horse,we would have three horses racing and the trainer sounds ok with it.I believe the offer to be a generous one.  Discussion on voting rights would be needed.

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by Des Carruthers on Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:34 pm

I would say Yes. My only slight concern is that owners of Some Change would have 50% and the Syndicate 50% so what happens if the Syndicate votes in one way and the owners vote differently?

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by barryf on Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:24 pm

Interesting proposal received by Email. Positive reaction from me.

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by barryf on Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:11 pm

Looks a good list, Dene.  From the Photos/Videos , the colts 10 and 66 plus fillies 31 and 132 caught the eye particularly, but the colts were passed in without reaching the reserves of $40000 so could be hard to catch.  The fillies at $25000 and $30000 impressed.

Those listed as "Withdrawn" may have been injured , or had prior interest in them, so I did not consider those ones.

Lot 52 was not on your list, maybe a bit small but well related (Art Form etc).

Later- I read that 52 did not appear at the auction, due to a temporary mishap.
Also some mystery surrounding Lot 113. I had positive parade day notes , then a $15000 bid with a question mark on sale day. No details at all, apart from the name, on the PGG sales list.

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by dene neal on Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:00 pm

As I joined the ATC syndicates to races horses I would be most interested in purchasing another horse to replace the ill-fated Change Pace. I also agree with Barry`s thoughts. This morning I scrolled through the recent Karaka sales catalogue and came up with a list of possibilities, some of which were withdrawn from the sales. It would be interesting to find out how many of these horses may still be available for sale. The lot numbers I noted were as followed 4 6 9 10 12 31 66 69 98 111 113 132. I would be interested in any comments on this list.

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by Des Carruthers on Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:33 am

I agree with Barry's thoughts. We signed up to race 3 horses and a refund seems to defeat that purpose. There is a half brother to Major Change ( Lot 66 by Somebeachsomewhere ) that was passed in at the Classic Sales with a reserve of $40,000 that has not been sold and is currently being broken in. There must be many other candidates for Geoff to consider with an insurance bank of $35,000.

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by barryf on Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:55 pm

Is it too late to look for a substitute horse?
Perhaps, but the 2015 sales were only 2 months ago and there were a number of passings which may be available.
Most would have been fillies but some colts were noted also.

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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by dene neal on Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:09 pm

Tragic news especially for our newer members. As Rob breed and reared this horse he will be feeling gutted at present. To those newer members, stay strong as shown in the past ATC syndicates always bounce back from adversity. Best wishes for the future of the ATC 2016 syndicate.


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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by ray the beancounter on Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:01 pm

My best guess is that the insurance payout will be refunded to syndicate members.

When we lost an earlier syndicate horse (Cran's Dream) it was very fortunate timing in that it was only a matter of weeks prior to the February yearling sales. A vote was held and a replacement horse was purchased for the syndicate at the said yearling sales - a great buy, as we ended up with the very well performed Ideal Belle.
This is hence the reason that we have ended up with a 4 yr old (Ideal Belle) and a 5 yr old (Major Star) in the same syndicate.

There is a standardbred sale coming up in May (the weanling and mixed age sale) but we are not talking the same quality yearlings on offer as were seen in the main February sales. A weanling is not an option as it is too young and a further year required in growth and maturity. Hence my suggestion that a refund will be forthcoming.
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Re: ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by Des Carruthers on Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:40 pm

That is most unfortunate. Rob Carr must be upset after all the work that he put into the horse. What happens now? Is it too late for the syndicate to look for a substitute horse or do we wait for the sales in 2016?

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ATC 2016 Syndicate Horse – Change Pace

Post by ray the beancounter on Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:22 pm

Email received this afternoon from our syndicate manager….
“We have suffered a major blow to our early Syndicate life, with the Auckland Trotting Club 2016 Syndicate horse Change Pace (Rocknroll Hanover / Chaangerr) being found in his paddock this morning with a broken leg. It was a bad break to his tibia bone, which is probably the hardest bone for him to break………

Unfortunately, the severity of Change Pace’s injury has meant that he had to be euthanized.”

We certainly get exposed to both the highs and lows of harness racing, but it is very sad to lose a young horse before he has had a chance to prove himself.
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