Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by ray the beancounter on Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:19 pm

Hi Des, I have just got back home after two days of hard-labour work on a launch we are restoring.

I had a brief look over the times ran yesterday at Cambridge and looked back very fondly at the 1:52.2 run by Belle. Cambridge certainly doesn't produce the lightning fast times that Ashburton does.

As regards any potential sale of Belle I would not be in support of any sale of her that could lead to her being raced by the purchaser. I will only support a sale if she proves to be unsound for future racing due to ongoing injuries or if the choice of available races for her diminishes. Her past form is of little use in predicting her future racing performance, the injuries she has sustained are severe enough to have changed her gait to the point that she was touching a knee and cutting that knee on her follow through when completing a stride. I would further qualify my support of any proposed sale, if it came to a sale, in that I would only support a sale to a syndicate of current members who wish to breed from her or to a recognised professional breeder. The chances of either of these parties attempting a racing comeback would be minimal.

As to Sky Major, his failure is of little surprise to me. One of the current Sky Major syndicate members advised me recently that rumours are circulating within their ranks that their horse has the early stages of a bleeding issue when placed under pressure. Sounds familiar doesn’t it – an aging Art Major whose body is struggling to hold up to the abilities of their younger years – ie. Major Star. The Sky Major syndicate member indicated that a sale to the US was also a possibility for Sky Major – no doubt in order to benefit from the use of Lasix.
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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by Des Carruthers on Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:10 pm

Having just watched Field Marshal win the 4yo Jewels (He is talked up as a future Grand Circuit horse) I would like to draw the following comparison. Field Marshal led unchallenged from barrier 1 and received no strong pressure down the back and was fully extended to run 1.53.1. Ideal Belle, as a 3yo filly, took half a lap to work to the lead and then was attacked two and three wide down the back before a 600m two horse war with Venus Serena and ran 1.52.2. ... and we are considering not racing her any more and selling her off to somebody else to breed/sell/race her offspring. Why would we do that?
Last night at Bunbury, in country Western Australia, an Art Major / Sky Beauty horse, with a strong Barry Purdon connection, won a race but it was not the 1/15 favourite Sky Major but his full brother Sky Art in an earlier event. Sky Art has now won a few races over here in the West but Sky Major was a major disappointment. Although it was a fast time and he was attacked in the lead, the horse than put on all the pressure still finished ahead of the favourite.

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by Des Carruthers on Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:51 pm

Ideal Belle's younger half sister Platinum Belle has just won at Gloucester Park at her first Western Australian start. Later on tonight (I'm)Master Charlie will also have his first start in W.A.

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by Conwell on Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:42 pm

Thought I would also share some of the discussion regarding Belle that took place last Saturday after the vote on the sale of Major Star.

Belle is still being treated daily for her current leg injury but seems to be on the improve. The focus at this point is to attempt to get her back ready for racing in the Spring. The breeding season runs between September and December each year, so Rob advised that the ideal time to sell her as a broodmare would be no later than August to get the best sale price. By the time of the next AGM we should have an idea whether she is on track to resume racing in the Spring or not and it may still afford us the opportunity to sell her as a broodmare this year if racing is looking unlikely.
Rob also advised that the likely option when selling her as a broodmare would be to put her up for tender. This would achieve the best purchase price for Belle and also give syndicate members that were interested in retaining her for breeding purposes the option to put in an offer while officially terminating the ATC 2012 syndicate. (which was obviously designed to race horses rather than breed them)
I for one would be interested in being part of a syndicate to purchase her as a broodmare, as I'm sure some others would be too.

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ideal belle discission

Post by nealclan on Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:22 pm

At the Annual General Meeting in July an up date and discussion on Ideal Belle will be made, as it will be clearer by then if she is going to race or go to the breeding paddock.

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by Des Carruthers on Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:49 pm

If Ideal Belle is worth so little (per share) in a broodmare sale then why, other than a career ending injury, would we even consider selling her and losing the positive aspects of continuing to race her? If Major Star is sold then the ongoing training costs for ATC2012 would be cut right down. Her broodmare value would remain the same in two years time with the possibility of being increased by future success.
Auckland horse Twoandahalftigers just won his sixth race in a row today at Pinjarra in W.A. by looping the field and leading for the final two laps.

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by ray the beancounter on Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:24 pm

Des that is the sixty four thousand dollar question.

I don't really know what Belle's value would be as a broodmare but I have broached the subject with a couple of people in the industry and they were were equally uncertain. It is a gamble as to whether her progeny will make it as a racehorse - there are no guarantees in the breeding industry, just as there are no guarantees in the racing industry.

One said that they wouldn't pay any more than $15,000 to $20,000 due to the uncertainties of breeding and costs involved to get a yearling to the sales. The other indicated a range of $25,000 to $40,000 - but realistically she is worth what someone is prepared to pay for her.
A multiple Group One winner would of course be worth even more.

Who knows.......these indicated figures could be miles out.
I think that the best person to know Belle's market value as a broodmare would be someone like Charlie Roberts of Woodlands Stud. Also if Charlie were personally interested in purchasing Belle then you may get a premium on the price, as he has been known to pay top dollar to get a particular horse that he is set on getting.
She is worth considerably less as a broodmare sale proposition than she is if she were to be sold as a fully fit racing proposition.
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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by Des Carruthers on Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:11 pm

Since running second in the Ladyship Mile at Menangle on Feb 28th, (My) Willow has won her next three races at Menangle and last Friday won the Group 3 Jodies Babe mares race at Melton and picked up the $20,000 winners cheque. If Ideal Belle returns to full race fitness there are plenty of mares races to target with the NZ mares being far superior to the Australian mares bar Frith. She is an Oaks winner and current NZ mares record holder who would only add to her broodmare value if she could perform well in these top mares races. Does anyone have an estimate as to her current broodmare sale value?

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by ray the beancounter on Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:16 pm

Thanks guys for contributing to this thread…

I have had a look through the major mares races on the HRNZ website and to be honest there are a few more “significant” races than I realised, that Belle could participate in. A bit north-south travel will be required but the races concerned are:

Sires Stakes Mares Classic 13-Nov 2015 (NZ Metro) Listed Race for 4YO+ Mares $40,000
Caduceus Club Northern Breeders Stakes 11-Dec 2015 (Auckland) Group 3 Race for Mares $30,000
Rosslands Queen Of Hearts 18-Dec 2015 (Auckland) Group 1 Race for Mares $100,000
Garrards Premier Mares Championship 12-Feb 2016 (NZ Metro) Group 2 Race for Mares $40,000
Magness Benrow Northern Mares Classic 11-Mar 2016 (Auckland) Listed Race for 4YO+ Mares $40,000
PGG Wrightson NZ Breeders Stakes 01-Apr 2016 (NZ Metro) Group 1 Race for Fillies & Mares $100,000

This doesn’t alter the fact that Belle will have to race against open class boys for the majority of her lead up races whilst aiming towards the above mares races. That will either be beneficial or demoralising depending on how she handles the step up.
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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by barryf on Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:48 pm

It depends on the trainer's opinion as to whether to press on or look for a breeder/buyer.

I am open minded  on the question and quite happy to see her resume her racing career if her health is good.

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by Des Carruthers on Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:23 am

Nike Franco won $82,500 for winning the Mares Classic at Gloucester Park on Interdominion Final day with local horse Jungle Jewel earning $22,500 for running second. On Miracle Mile day at Menangle this February, Frith won $120,000 for winning the Ladyship Mile (Ideal Belle still holds the mares all time N.Z. record for 1700m) with Willow earning $30,000 for running second. Our ATC2012 syndicate has put in the time to see her through her injuries and to sell her off now would be a waste of that patience and a loss of the potential for ATC 2012 to race one of the best mares in N.Z. / Australia in the classic mares races during the next few years. When the time comes to retire her to stud, I would give her away in exchange for a chance to own and race her first offspring.

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by Conwell on Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:30 pm

Yes most of her year are already in the broodmare paddock, but most of those horses raced through 4YO and 5YO seasons before going there, where Belle has obviously had little racing over the past two seasons.
If she were to come back and sustain another injury then yes we should possibly look at calling it quits, but I am personally happy to give her another shot before reassessing her future.

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Re: Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by Des Carruthers on Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:59 pm

What would her value be if sold as a broodmare? There are plenty of mares classic races that the best Ideal Belle would be a huge chance in. Interdominion time in Perth and the Miracle Mile carnival in Menangle for example. If we sell her, all is finished. I am definitely in for the long haul as 1/50th of her future racing career is worth a lot more to me than 1/50th of her broodmare sale price.

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Ideal Belle - Racehorse or Broodmare?

Post by ray the beancounter on Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:05 pm

The following are the horses that Belle beat in the Oaks May 2014, in order of placings, and in brackets I have shown what the horse is nowadays doing:

Raksdeal (in foal)
Te Amo Bromac (already had one foal and in foal again)
Rocknroll Arden (already had one foal and in foal again)
Venus Serena (in foal)
Millie Sampson (still racing?)
Ideal Power (already had one foal and in foal again)
Royal Counsel (racing in South Island)
Cala (exported to Australia and last raced 15th May 2015 so likely in the broodmare paddock)
Albuquerque (in foal)
Saharazona (in foal)
Bay Emerald (unsuccessful attempt to get in foal)

Add to this the mares that were in the March 2015 race that Belle won at Auckland:
Snooki (in foal)
River Polka (in foal)

The vast majority of fillies and mares that Belle previously raced against have been retired from racing and are in the broodmare paddock.

The question is therefore, what is the point in persevering with Belle as a racing proposition?

As a C5 rated horse she will not be racing in any mares races. There aren’t enough mares still racing in New Zealand of Belle’s grade or age to put a race together.
To continue racing will see her racing in C4 to Open Class races against stallions and geldings.

She has only had 25 race day starts but realistically she has missed the boat as a racing proposition, due to injuries sustained.

Should we be suggesting at the next annual syndicate AGM that she be sold as a broodmare in order that she can be served and be put in foal this season (October, November, December) otherwise it would be another year away before that opportunity avails itself and thus a delay of a year before her progeny will be sighted.

Come on folks the purpose of this forum is to offer a platform for you to offer your opinion and this is surely one of the most topical and important issues facing current syndicates. You don't have to agree with me this is a democracy afterall, but I would like to hear peoples opinions.
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