Ideal Belle (AGM)

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by Des Carruthers on Wed May 17, 2017 1:05 pm

Not only is Ideal Belle's half sister My Platinum Belle racing at Gloucester Park on Friday having won her past two starts but likewise for Major Star's half brother Dana Duke who is looking good over here in Perth having won both starts. For anyone who wants to diversify their racing portfolio, I have bought a syndicate share of a magnificent Sportswriter yearling filly trained by top trainer Ross Oliveri and already broken in and moving beautifully. It was Lot 475 at the recent APG Perth sales. See the Pacing WA website for details. This could be the one Geejay.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Wed May 17, 2017 12:35 pm

Ideal Belles 4yr old Bettor'sDelight 1/2 sister won a nice $18,000 stake race at Gloucester Park recently to take her record so far this season to 3 wins 3 seconds and 1 third from 7 starts.That's not bad at all !
Favourite from 1 draw and got all her own way leading and ran away from them at the end.Certainly looked like she is getting better albeit not up against strong fields.
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2,130 M Track Rating: GOOD Gross Time: 2:37:2 Mile Rate: 1:58:7 Lead Time: 37.6
First Quarter: 31.3 Second Quarter: 30.9 Third Quarter: 29.4 Fourth Quarter: 28.0
Margins: 5.5m x HFHD

Goes again Friday, 19-May-2017 Gloucester Park
Race 7 at 8:27 PM

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by barryf on Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:21 pm

Geejay. I have not heard any discussions involving an interest from ATC syndicate members in lodging a tender for Belle.  But then some may be working separately or as a small group in confidence as they are entitled to do.

The ones I know are there for the racing, here and now, and probably not inclined to be interested in long term speculation.  They wait very patiently  for racing opportunities as they arise. Sleep

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:14 pm

Des Carruthers wrote:An indication as to the value of Ideal Belle as a broodmare is that at todays sales a yearling by Art Major out of Rocknroll Arden sold for $155,000. Ideal Belle was a better performed racehorse and is better related than Rocknroll Arden. This is only foal number one. It makes the estimated $40-50,000 for Ideal Belle seem well under the mark. Update ... On day 2 a Bettors Delight filly out of Te Amo Bromac sold for $110,000 and an Art Major colt out of Cheer The Lady sold for $150,000 which further underlines the value of well performed NZ mares when mated with the top stallions.

Agree the estimated $40-50,000 for Ideal Belle seems well under the mark but fear it won't be ! Te Amo Bromac also an inferior to Belle,thats the one isn't it that knocked Belle on the home bend at Addington robbing her of almost certain victory over Venus Serena in a big race.Still makes me angry as from my recollection it's driver Natt Rasmussen had been warned for not controlling it's wayward behaviour in it's previous race.Easy for me an armchair driver to say that though but it was very annoying that happening.
I saw on stabletalk was asked if any ATC syndicate members looking at getting together and putting in a tender for Belle.I  responded -Would love to be in a syndicate to buy Belle and breed from her but have no idea of the costs involved in the breeding business with a broodmare and a lack of pennies in the bank probably rules this out unfortunately.
If the whole syndicate could decide to retain her and form an independant breeding syndicate would be great but I'm not smart enough to bring that to fruition but interested to know if anyone of our syndicate members out there is !.
-
Likelyhood of a sale must be very high and now so little time to play with so hopefully some syndicate members manage to be part of Belle's new ownership very unlikely anything involving all members could eventuate in time.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by Des Carruthers on Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:16 pm

An indication as to the value of Ideal Belle as a broodmare is that at todays sales a yearling by Art Major out of Rocknroll Arden sold for $155,000. Ideal Belle was a better performed racehorse and is better related than Rocknroll Arden. This is only foal number one. It makes the estimated $40-50,000 for Ideal Belle seem well under the mark. Update ... On day 2 a Bettors Delight filly out of Te Amo Bromac sold for $110,000 and an Art Major colt out of Cheer The Lady sold for $150,000 which further underlines the value of well performed NZ mares when mated with the top stallions.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:09 pm

Wow ! 33-1 Ouch ! ,a thorough thrashing. Crying or Very sad
Only good thing I can say about owning that 1 is it brings back fond memories of my younger days when our phone number was Palmerston Nr 1 in the days of the old manual plug-in-cord telephone exchanges.Oh well,no use running to hide in a dark corner and sulking , sad news but not unexpected and hopefully in Belle's best interests.
Have had allot of fun along with the ups and downs that I learnt exist when owning a racehorse,lucky to have got 2 of the quality of Star and Belle.Now just got to bury those,what could have been ,thought's and carry on enjoying their future's be it on the racetrack or breeding paddock.
Hopefully Belle will fetch a nice price ,that Breeders Crown race that was her's for the taking would have been nice to have by her name now but as has been mentioned her credentials as a broodmare are impressive so should attract allot of interest.Maybe enough for me to have another go at this ownership business though I am a little concerned with the future of this racing industry ,seems to be struggling a bit in NZ and strange things happening like the new whip rules in NZ and Auss.
Cheers and all the best Belle !

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by ray the beancounter on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:42 pm

I likewise thought that the value of $40,000 to $50,000 was a little on the low side, but we will not know her true value until the tender envelopes are opened. She is worth what somebody is prepared to pay for her.

The resolution to retire and sell was this evening passed 33:1 and the sale is to now be advertised. A sale banner on the HRNZ website appears to be the main proposed advertisement, which will link to a copy of the tender documents. This is to provide both national and international exposure.

It is proposed that tender documents be deposited in a tender box to be located at the Auckland Trotting Club reception and Rob invited syndicate members to be present at the tender closing time to oversee the opening of the envelopes. Could be an interesting experience.
Rob advised that Belle has already been sent for a spell in lieu of retirement whilst this process gets underway and that a vet check to confirm suitability as a broodmare will be arranged as soon as possible.
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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by Des Carruthers on Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:00 pm

I looked at the advertisement for American Ideal and right near the top was the credit * Sire of Ideal Belle - Group 1 New Zealand Oaks winner. Add to that a NZ all comers record as a 3yo filly having her 5th start that remains a NZ filly record. Add to that the fact that her immediate half brother was NZ 2yo of the year. Why wouldn't you want to breed from her. $40 - $50,000 seems way under when you look at the prices that can be achieved from the top credentialed broodmares. You imagine how we would all feel if a breeder buys her for $50,000 and sells the first foal for $150,000 or it races prominently in the name of the breeder.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by ray the beancounter on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:38 pm

Geejay, I am currently aware of five interested parties who want her for breeding purposes and that is only the ones located in the surrounding area - and is prior to her being advertised for sale. Our manager is one of those five, as are two well known studs. Advertise and bring the South Island breeders into play and there could be some healthy interest develop.
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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by barryf on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:33 pm

Breeding is no easy path and generally it is the large scale operators who have the numbers to be able to balance out the wins against the losses with reasonable success. The top stallions do not come cheap and there is no certainty that a foal will come and it takes years to wait for the progeny to make it to the racetrack.

Anyway some interesting points should come from tonight's meeting.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:36 pm

3 last placings in a row does seem rather sad and understandable not to want to see her record tarnished any further.
As my summary shows she has not had an easy introduction back to racing though races have been well spaced for her .
Yes ,don't want to push her too far and perhaps end up with more big vet bills,the problem with selling her right now is it's quite likely the buyer will want to race her at least until the next breeding season so question is is it better for her to continue racing under our ownership a little bit longer with the possibility of trying a change of environment and picking her races so things are not too demanding on her.
Seems some truth in the comments by Conwall after 16th dec race :-
" that she needs to be out rolling in front putting together some good sectionals at her own rate rather than relying on the tempo of the race her go her way."
Wonder if she had got to do this in more of her races if results would have been better,2 of her better races went along these line's ,the DG Holmes 2nd and then Movenpick Mile 3rd while her latest race perhaps run along just a bit too quick,Mangos unfamiliar with her long deceptive stride ??,dunno ! but he set up a NZ record time.
If you gotta retire her now then how about a chat with the likes of Rob Carr and try and talk him into taking Belle to breed for our syndicate members.Would do him good to have another nice mare to fuzzy over in his retirement from fuzzying over us , give him a good percentage in her etc? etc? ,a proven breeder with Belle's wellbeing at heart.I should have suggested that when I sent him my proxy vote.I know,I am dreaming again ! drunken  Cheers

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by barryf on Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:39 pm

Your positive thoughts are appreciated Geejay.
I sense that those of us who attend the meetings feel sad when we see Belle running effectively last in her last 5 races (taking into account mistake makers) and don't want to see her record tarnished any further.
The after effects of her injuries may be having a psychological effect, even if to a very small degree.  Also, after the syndicate had to bear the burden of vet costs running into multi thousands of dollars as a result of those injuries,a further recurrence, which could be a factor if she continues to push herself too hard, can not be overlooked.
I think she has earned a dignified retirement.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:27 pm

Food for thought before retiring Belle,think we tend to be disappointed rather easily and forget what she has been going through after her injury and long break.
Just a quick summary of a much larger summary I  hurriedly made of Belle‘s performances since returning from injury.Have listed mainly times here but could list more excuses as usually able to find something that could explain what we think has been disappointing.Over racing has been a problem and I may have not listed all cases as doing this in a rush.
3 sept -Workout  3:19.0 (MR 2:08.0), with good closing sectionals of 57.1 and 28.6.
10 sept-Workout 3:01 for the last 2400m, so they were running along
16 Sept-2700m race- race that saw the fastest officially recorded last half in a race at Alexandra Park of 53.7.running her own last half in an amazing 53.4 seconds.
30 sept-2200m race- 2.9 lengths from the winner.Belle’s closing sectionals were completed in impressive times of 55.2 and 26.8.The winner was Hughie Green, in a time of 2:46.6 (MR 2:01.Cool, with the closing sectionals completed in 55.3 and 26.9
14 Oct-2200m race- 2nd placing, going down by 1¼ lengths.Ardens Choice,The Faithful,No Dr Needed and Hughie Green behind her .Winners time 3:22.6 (MR 2:00.7), with the last 800m in 58.7 and the 400m in 28.7.
29th Oct-Workout- just let her run home herself. She finished on the bit with a 55 half
04 Nov -1700 race- winner was Rocker Band, in a good time of 2:01.4 (MR 1:54.9), with fast closing sectionals of 55.5 and 27.7. Nose and only another ¾ length from the winner. She got a bit keen down the back
11 Nov-2700m race- Breaks start,loses 50m then breaks in straight- winner Arden’s Choice, in a time of 3:24.0 (MR 2:01.5), with the last 800m in a very quick 55.2 and the 400m in 28.1. Her hearts thumping and she’s having a bit of a blow.
18 Nov  - 1700m race- Winner Hughie Green, in a fast time of 2:00.3 (MR 1:53.9), with the closing sectionals completed in 56.3 and 28.2 Belle 3-back on the markers and got very keen in the running. As they sped down the back in 28.1, Belle was actually last of the main bunch passing the 400m pole ,7.6 lengths from the winner and last
Monday (21st November), “She was very bright this morning , her blood was very good last week , her work has been good too. She was dragging me all the way to the paddock today
3rd Dec- Workout- winner Rocker Band, in a good time of 2:34.0 (MR 2:00.Cool, last 800m in 57.5 and  400m in a quick 26.8. Jacob said, “She was good. The plug cord got caught around her legs, so I just had to sit there, but she wanted to keep going. I was happy with her.”
09 Dec  -2200m race- Winner Dream About Me, in a time of 2:40.2 (MR 1:57.2) with the closing sectionals completed in 57.4 and 27.2. Belle‘s actual time of 2:41.6 was very respectable coming home in 58.5 and 28.3. ,though 8 lengths from winner.
16 Dec – 2200m race- Dream About Me, in a time of 2:43.4 (MR 1:59.5), with the closing sectionals completed in very fast times of 55.0 and 26.9 . Belle ran along tucked away 3-back on the markers throughout, but did get a little keen with what was slow pace being set up front, as they ran through the first quarter of the last mile in 32.9 seconds and then the next quarter in 32.1 . 8th and last placing, belying the fact that she had actually run quick closing sectional times herself of 55.5 and 27.4. The Stewards Report stated, “IDEAL BELLE - over-raced in the middle stages and then weakened during the run home
31 Dec-2700m race-8th,winner Vincent in nz record time,cut 1.5 sec of record. Belle good beginning  to 3rd,round to lead soon though fast tempo,lead time a cracking 1.23,6 for stand start says commentator soon after she took over.Then as they came into straight to get the bell he said “ Walkinshaw getting more detached as is Alta Las Vegas,to show you what sort of speed is on“ . Belle run down in straight.Perhaps not the perfect drive by Mangos after all..Times:Mile Rate: 1-58.9 Last 800m: 55.7 Last 400m: 27.1
Her time 3-20.9 ,is equal to the mares NZ record from a stand set by Lancome in 2011 1.23,6
--
Is she there mentally. Her work tremendous lately. ????? Is she not capable of winning again ???? scratch

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:38 pm


I am finding it difficult to accept the opinion that Belle does not want to be a racehorse any longer,seem to remember hearing similar comments at some point concerning our other syndicate horse Major Star.
As much as I respect her trainer and his views on the retirement of Belle I wonder if selling her now is necessarily in Belle's best interests considering the new owners can do whatever they want with her,continue racing her does seem a very likely outcome at least until the next breeding season comes round and no guarantee she will be raced with Belles best interests at heart.
That aside and with Star's positive response to the change of trainer and new environment I wonder, not only for Belle sake but also for us syndicate owners, if a change of this nature should maybe also be tried especially while she is still in our ownership.
With a change restricted to NZ I would like to hear what others have to say and especially about what the possibilities are for getting a horse back into the right frame of mind for the vigours of raceday.I would think a new environment could be a positive,perhaps beach working(maybe good for her leg too) and what about the hydro treadmill at Jay Abernethy's .Actually would a shift to Jay's be worth considering seeing as he's her breeder,would be like going home.
I am not suggesting a trainer change because I think Barry P hasn't done a great job with her as I think him and wife Katrina and their team have been terrific and appreciate the great job they have all done.It's just that if the problem could be a mental thing then isn't it good for us to explore all possible avenue's to see if there is something there to be gained,is bad enough for us in a sense having let Major Star go and seeing quite an improvement in him in Australia .
Am glad to say though I still follow him and can still celebrate his success's despite the pain of losing him.
As for the possible sale price of Belle I wouldn't think her valuation as a broodmare should diminish with further racing regardless of results,her breeding is very good with her dam producing the top juvenile Five Card Draw the year before her,he also a NZ record breaker.Her group 1 win in the Oaks, very unlucky 2nd to Venus Serena in the Nevele R Fillies Series Final and Jewells 2nd amongst many top performances should also not detract in value with time in my opinion.
Is a sale with some sort of clause that the syndicate receive a percentage of the sale of say her first 3 foals if they sell for say $50,000 or more at all something that can be a part of a sale,just wondering seeing as I know nothing about selling horses but also wonder if selling at a slightly lower level price with such a clause could be attractive to less wealthy buyers and for syndicate holders who may not receive more than $800-$900 for the outright sale.
Just a thought as for such a return I am not very enthusiastic on giving up on Belle at this moment.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by barryf on Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:06 pm

I guess the tender process should flush out the leading breeders but the  purchaser would want an alternative to race her should she not get in foal.  Australian breeders can not be ruled out as their broodmare quality seems to be at a moderate level.

On reflection I have wondered as to whether or not she wants to be a racehorse.  It looks like she is almost too keen to do well as she has gone forward with enthusiasm but has been caught short at the finish, probably because of the early exertions. Continual racing at her present level is proving frustrating for most of her followers  as it seems she is almost there  and  you can sense a feeling of sharing in her inability to perform at her previous standard.

The good times were so good, so the memories will carry on.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by Des Carruthers on Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:42 pm

?????? So we are not voting to retire her nor selling her as a broodmare ... we are selling her outright and the new owner/s can please themselves. Compare her and her recent training and even race times to the types of horses that are being bought by Australian interests in that price range. With the breeding season 6 months away she would be a fantastic opportunity at that price to change her location and environment to Australia get her interested again and have a go ourselves. She will sell as a broodmare later anyway. Remember that we will each get about $800 but the trainer will get $4,000+. Also remember that Major Star found his lost speed in a new environment and is now running 1.55 rates at Melton. If we do sell by tender then the tender should be advertised amongst potential trainers and not just breeders.


Last edited by Des Carruthers on Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by ray the beancounter on Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:38 pm

A Special General Meeting has been called on Monday 16th January to vote on a resolution to retire and subsequently offer for sale our Belle. If the resolution is passed, which realistically it will be, then advertising for sale by tender will commence.
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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:39 pm

"The syndicates are set up to promote harness racing in Auckland and the surrounding districts" yeah I guess thats applaudable and can't complain really ,is also fantastic for the majority of shareholders being in NZ and being able to see their horses racing in the flesh,very thrilling especially when lucky enough to get 2 as good as Star and Belle.A NZ record holder and North Island filly of the year not bad for a first owner.
Mainly bad luck has meant we have not had quite the success that we could have had with them ,racing can be cruel at times with the ups and downs , but it has been fun.Does look like retirement round the corner for Belle though with breeding season just gone I won't be disappointed if they find another race or 2 for her and explore a little longer any changes that might help her.Finding it hard to stop clinging on to her with the likelyhood of owning a horse again not certain,

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by ray the beancounter on Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:09 pm

Hi Geejay. We have had a similar discussion previously – likely before you joined the forum and the general gist of the thread was that a trip to Australia, for any syndicate horse, is very unlikely unless the horse is being sent over there with a particular race in mind eg. Major Star heading to Melton in Victoria in 2012 to compete in the Vicbred series or the Breeders Crown.
Management take the view that the syndicate rules state that the syndicates are set up to promote harness racing in Auckland and the surrounding districts (I cannot remember the exact wording and I am not at home currently to check on this). Management also take the view that the cost of travel to Australia is not a cheap exercise (circa $20,000 with flights for the horse, companion staff, and driver, accommodation for the horse, companion staff and driver, etc) hence the reason that only a targeted race is considered and there has to be a reasonable realistic chance of success for the horse to be able to cover the travel costs.

The chances of Belle going to Australia under the ownership of the existing syndicate for the purposes of racing – zero. In her current form there is little reasonable chance of her covering the travel costs. It is more likely that she would be retired from racing and sold as a broodmare, as her next career path.
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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:08 am

Seemed the perfect drive by Mangos.
Looking at her time 3-20.9 ,is equal to the mares NZ record from a stand set by Lancome in 2011 so my feeling of disappointment with her seems a bit harsh.
Does seem a bit out of place our thoughts of retiring a horse running these times though it does seem like to win a big race these days will take no less than breaking the record book.
Can we not take her to Auss for awhile albeit to race in lesser races ,plenty of suitable races over there with minimum $20,000 stake, am sure she would pay her way quite quickly. Smile

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by ray the beancounter on Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:31 pm

I agree that it was a good drive that gave Belle every possible chance, but she just battled for the last 200 metres.
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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by Conwell on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:11 pm

A perfect drive from Brent Mangos on Belle today and she simply wasn't good enough.

I am now 100% on board with retirement for her.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by ray the beancounter on Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:59 pm

geejay wrote:.....Tells me I should probably keep my armchair thoughts more to myself.....

Geejay, that is a big old "nope" from me....
50 syndicate members should have 50 varying opinions and that is the purpose of this forum to be able to express your opinion - rather than simply relying upon what we are told.  It helps generate healthy discussion.
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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by geejay on Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:58 am

Also pleased to read this newsletter and hear Barry's take on this all.Tells me I should probably keep my armchair thoughts more to myself.Great news how well she is going in training ,hopefully he can find why her racing isn't reflecting this .Running good times still so an easier race in the meantime could be a help. Go Belle !

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

Post by Conwell on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Pleased to read in today's newsletter that even though Belle is looking for an easier option, it's still expected to be at the Premiere meeting on New Year's Eve.

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Re: Ideal Belle (AGM)

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